The sanctioning of child genital cutting at Cornell Universi

[sapphire_distortion]

This is not a new issue, you all know that, right? It's been going on in our country for decades, and its not just intersexed children, and its not just clitoral reconstructions either. Read up on the early "treatments" for pseudohermaphroditism and/or ambiguous genitalia. Even the parents of Turner's babies get pressured into things like this.

It's a really complex issue, A lot of parents see it as "I want to give my child the best chance at having a high quality of life" not as "omg, there is something wrong with my kid, fix it"

I know it's not something new, I can't speak for anyone else. And honestly, I don't really care what the justification is for it, I don't think there's a good reason to do what amounts to cosmetic surgery on someone who can't consent to it.

[poorandweird]

Cosmetic surgery for enlarged genitals is absurd if there's no underlying physical problem.

As for intersexed kids, i honestly do NOT know what to say, and obviously you have to balance the risks of the child having a shitty life if you don't rectify it (i.e. getting bullied), and the chance that your child may reject their gender once they're older; i don't know how common it is that the doctors "get the wrong gender" (sorry i had no better way to articulate this) but i can imagine it's damaging as hell.

[MeritaViola]

This is not a new issue, you all know that, right? It's been going on in our country for decades, and its not just intersexed children, and its not just clitoral reconstructions either. Read up on the early "treatments" for pseudohermaphroditism and/or ambiguous genitalia. Even the parents of Turner's babies get pressured into things like this.

It's a really complex issue, A lot of parents see it as "I want to give my child the best chance at having a high quality of life" not as "omg, there is something wrong with my kid, fix it"

I know it's not something new, I can't speak for anyone else. And honestly, I don't really care what the justification is for it, I don't think there's a good reason to do what amounts to cosmetic surgery on someone who can't consent to it.

What if the kids face was disfigured? Or what if they had a benign huge bulging purple growth on their stomach? Would you still poo poo cosmetic surgery then, or are you only against it because it involves genitalia and gender?

[sapphire_distortion]

Oh yeah, I'm such a party pooper because I think that unnecessary surgery (which might significantly lessen sensitivity, by the way, let's not forget that this guy was so proud because he was doing this without lessening sensitivity) just because someone doesn't fit into the binary gender system is a bad idea.

There are tons of intersex people who end up not identifying with the gender they were randomly assigned at birth and who might have to go through expensive and painful surgery later in life to correct that first surgery, if they can even do that (it's not always possible!). There are plenty of people who feel violated because they feel like their consent was taken away, even if they do identify as the gender that they were assigned at birth, and there are genderqueer people who don't identify as either gender and didn't want unnecessary surgery either. Or, you know, people who end up with shit for sensitivity because someone felt it was necessary to cut them up.

And how do we know parents are even thinking about what their children are going to go through? People are selfish, maybe they just don't want to go through life having to explain to family or strangers the way their child was born. (Note: I am not passing judgement on parents as whole, but seriously, I live in a country where it is not hugely uncommon for people to disown their children or relatives for being gay or transgender. Am I seriously supposed to believe that every single incident of surgeries like this is really something the parents are doing for the good of their children, or that the parents are even educated about the long-lasting results of the surgery, aside from "ok now your child fits into a neat, pre-assigned box"?)

I love how cutting up someone's genitals without their consent because they don't match some arbitrary beauty standard is OMG SO WRONG but cutting up someone's genitals without their consent because they don't match arbitrary gender standards is a-okay.

And really, comparing fucking with someone's identity, consent, and gender to removing a bulging benign tumor is not really a fair comparison. The process is not the same and the ramifications are not the same.

I mean, really, the "oh it's for their own good" argument could be used to justify other things too. Maybe everyone should have a required boob job at 13 so they're never made fun of for being flat-chested (or having big boobs). Or a nose job at age 5 so they aren't made fun of for having a crooked/big/whatever nose. Or maybe lipo should be mandatory as soon as they start to get out of the "healthy" BMI range.

[poorandweird]

does anyone know how balanced this article is yet?

[just_icarus]

Oh yeah, I'm such a party pooper because I think that unnecessary surgery (which might significantly lessen sensitivity, by the way, let's not forget that this guy was so proud because he was doing this without lessening sensitivity) just because someone doesn't fit into the binary gender system is a bad idea.

uuuuncalled-for

[poorandweird]

I really do not know where i stand on the issue of surgery on children born as hermaphrodites. That is my opinion.

But i read the original article on clitoral reductions and it sounded like a procedure whose risks outweighed its benefits, if it's referring to female babies whose clitorises are enlarged but not to the extent that they have ambiguous genitalia

[sapphire_distortion]

Oh yeah, I'm such a party pooper because I think that unnecessary surgery (which might significantly lessen sensitivity, by the way, let's not forget that this guy was so proud because he was doing this without lessening sensitivity) just because someone doesn't fit into the binary gender system is a bad idea.

uuuuncalled-for

Um, ok? I was responding to this:

Would you still poo poo cosmetic surgery then, or are you only against it because it involves genitalia and gender?

She said "poo poo", so I said "party pooper". I don't see where that's uncalled for. It's not like I was like "JEEZ MERITAVIOLA YOU EVIL CANADIAN BITCH!". : /

In case anyone is curious, this is the post I was talking about, and here's a response from someone who is - gasp - actually intersexed:

I support surgery that has to be done in order to help the child be normally functioning for their physical health, such as surgery to correct problems with the urethra. But to come out with this hogwash about how it's 'psychologically damaging' for children to grow up with genitalia that is not matching the stringent guidelines outlined in a medical textbook is disgusting and incredibly offensive.

Children should be allowed to decide for themselves if they want genital reconstructive surgery, and which gender identity they wish to align themselves with. While doctors may be right in some cases, in a large number they are not, particularly because they decide the child's gender identity largely based on the size of the cliterophallus. Most cases have nothing to do with the chromosomes of the child and everything to do with the heterocentric notion that the child, if allowed to be 'male' will have an unhealthy sexual life because his penis will not be able to pleasure a woman because it is too small.

It is far, far more traumatizing to be given a gender identity you do not want and to have your genitals hacked apart before you are really cognizant of them as an adult. Many, many intersexed could have had much happier lives with genitals closer to those that they really wanted, and happier childhoods without the pressure to conform to an applied gender identity that did not fit them. This also touches on transphobia, because many people cannot deal with the idea that a child should be free to choose what gender they ascribe to. Contrary to what may be a common belief, if a child is given guidance about the nature of their genitals, they'll deal with it pretty well. Children are really more flexible and strong than most people given them credit for.

I admit that this may or may not have anything to do with the study. I am not going to delve deeply into it because it is incredibly triggering to me to discuss genital reconstruction of infants with people I am not close to. But the language you use throughout your post, and the part I have highlighted are extremely hurtful and they do not fit with the sort of attitude that I would like to see from emerging physicians, especially those who express an interest with working with small children who may be forced to confront these sort of conditions.

It's better to champion the autonomy of these children as people than to mutilate them in order to make others, who should not need to concern themselves their others' genitals at all, more comfortable.

[poorandweird]

The statement about gender assignment being largely due to external genitalia rather than chromosomes makes me ask: is there currently, or could there be the potential to develop, any way in which the child's sex-determining chromosomes could be identified ?

[MeritaViola]

The statement about gender assignment being largely due to external genitalia rather than chromosomes makes me ask: is there currently, or could there be the potential to develop, any way in which the child's sex-determining chromosomes could be identified ?

well, dna testing...

But thats the thing, many of these children don't have normal XX or XY sets.

And even if they did, there may be tests to determine sex, but gender isn't tangible.

[sapphire_distortion]

The statement about gender assignment being largely due to external genitalia rather than chromosomes makes me ask: is there currently, or could there be the potential to develop, any way in which the child's sex-determining chromosomes could be identified ?

I thought there was, but I don't know for sure. The statement about the chromosomes was (I think) in response to someone else who said that it would make more sense if they did surgery based on chromosomes - someone else later pointed out that that doesn't make much sense either, because there are people whose chromosomes match their sex, but who are transgender.

ETA Merita beat me to it!

also I wanted to clarify, I'm not attacking you MV, I can see where you're coming from but I don't necessarily agree with it. Like I'm sure there are some parents out there who are not that educated and were misled by asshole doctors and REALLY THOUGHT they were doing the right thing for their kid - I'm not saying those people are evil monsters, but I don't think right intentions necessarily make right actions. Road to hell and whatnot.

[poorandweird]

of course gender isn't tangible, i entirely agree.

Conditions with chromosomes that are XXY or X0 or XXXX are usually extremely recognisable from birth, for example the symptons of Klinefelter's syndrome are very recognisable. I just wonder if children with ambiguous genitals necessarily always have an unclear biological sex.

[rainaraven]

looking to make money is all it is. a too big clit? really? arent there children with really big heads but they they grow into it right? i mean all babies look funky and most of them end up looking normal by the time they hit adolescence. it sounds like this doc might be into the religious aspect of if you "fix" them they wont be so likely to be anything but good and pure when they get owned... OH i mean married. and of course money.
yeah i could be way off base and a bit harsh but I do that sometimes.

[tague]

Here's my thing. I don't believe in binary or biological sex based gender. Do not now and have never felt comfortable with it ever in my life. At this point in my life, I feel like all forms of gendering and performances of gender are a form of drag in themselves even if your bits match up with what gender roles society says you should play. So I don't think that any child should EVER have any sort of genital surgery unless it's an issue like hypospadias or something that is actually hindering a child's physical health. I also definitely do not advocate raising a boy as a girl if you get him circumcised and it's botched.

I spent about three buried in research and studies and scholarly articles about these things for a Queer and Gender studies course and it's all really interesting and really thought provoking. I personally, refuse to call anything related to this a disease/disorder because they don't really physically hurt anyone (unless they have surgery pushed upon them at an early age) so that's why I'm just going to call everything a variant because it's just something different from the most common ways things are.

AT LEAST 1-5% of the world's population is born every year with some sort of sex variant other than the standard genitalia-ed XX or XY. It's at least that because a lot of times, things like Alpha 5 Reductase Syndrome and Kleinfelter's aren't discovered until later in life. In some individuals, yes, it's very noticeable but in others, that extra Y chromosome doesn't really show itself as drastically. So there are scientists who think that there are a lot of people out there with Kleinfelter's who may never know. A lot of scientists now think that Abe Lincoln may have had Kleinfelter's where the Y wasn't so apparent. So you know, we may have had a variantly/intersexed president and never realized it. Plus there are all the kids born with "normal" sex organs who don't feel right in their society imposed, genital based gender.

So, scientifically, we do not have two sexes. It's fact that there are not two sexes. The fact that sex isn't binary also means that gender, which is sometimes tied to sex, more often based off social conditioning, also isn't binary. And if scientifically, these things aren't things aren't binary, we shouldn't be trying to force them to be binary on a societal level. There are a lot of other cultures where there are groups of trans/intersexed/genderqueer people living outside of the binary and it is widely accepted within those cultures. If I were to ever have children, I would honestly let them choose and form their own gender identity from birth on. I got to somewhat do that until I was 7 and grew tits causing my mom to freak out and try to instill "lady-likeness" in me. I still grew up to be a female bodied person who feels mostly of neutral gender but enjoys playing in female drag more than male drag. But I felt really uncomfortable trying to be "a girl" for a ton of years and I feel like my mother's trying to gender me hurt me more emotionally than I think being born with a ginormous mini-penis sized clit would have.

BUT on the note of cutting down a little girl's clit because it's "too big" If you can decide a girl's pleasure feeling organs are too big, you can do the same thing to a boy's. I'm not saying this should happen ever. I'm saying this shouldn't have a double standard. There are a few studies showing that children with large traditional genitals are a little more likely to end up being queer/nonheteronormative in their sexualities. So there's also an air of homophobia running behind this too.

[poorandweird]

there is a very famous case study of a boy whose botched circumcison led to him being raised female; he reverted to being a man at adulthood and even had kids (i think), so psychologists assumed that he was totally fine mentally after his traumatic experience.
He later committed suicide.

I can't remember the name though

Also a well known study has shown that the prevalence of gender dysmorphia decreased in the sample between the ages of about 7 and 18, so many girls who says they want to become men or men who say they want to become boys, at age eight, may ten years later feel comfortable in their assigned sex and gender, leaving a small minority. I wonder if this shows that gender identity is fluid, y'know? Like how were the children raised, with regards to attitudes towards gender roles, and did this affect them? or does a developing brain combined with new neural connections being made mean that your perception of your gender may change? How huge a role does puberty play in all of this?

I wish i knew.