Student Loan Hell

[LilyBathory]

and wait a second, you mean you are in grad school and once you graduate you still have to pay for training? you pay for school and then for an apprenticeship?

[jessiegrrrl]

Possibly yes, but there are ways around it. In my case, I will only have to pay for training if I can't get supervised wherever it is I end up working when I have finished my degree. For example, I need a doctoral level therapist to supervise me for 3,600 hours of work after graduation before I can get a license to practice on my own. I could stop at graduating, but there's no point in getting the degree and then not getting licensed. I would remain insanely limited on what I could do in that case. Anyway, if I work somewhere that there isn't a person that meets the qualifications to be my supervisor where they could do it for free because they are already my boss, then I would need to find someone who does and will take me on as their supervisee. Typically, yeah, you'll end up having to pay them for their time because they are providing a service to you.

[jessiegrrrl]

Our system absolutely needs to take some notes from other places, that's for sure! But unfortunately, I doubt that is going to happen any time soon, if at all.

[LilyBathory]

well it's not like the system here is so much fun. it's insanely restricted (but I just browsed wikipedia to understand the differences, and apparently it was installed after the war, is actually called "the german system" and people say it's the reason why the worldwide recession didn't really hurt germany - huh. who woulda though) and well, you're basically a failure if you don't do the 3-year-apprenticeship or 5-year-university-degree and somehow come out younger than when you went in (oh and add a couple years abroad and 3 foreign languages and 2 years of experience to that) unless you wanna go into media. then you're free to do whatever the fuck you want and just need to be a good liar with fashionable shoes.

however, I think this is officially the first time in forever that I am happy to have come back home after travelling.

[jessiegrrrl]

well it's not like the system here is so much fun. it's insanely restricted (but I just browsed wikipedia to understand the differences, and apparently it was installed after the war, is actually called "the german system" and people say it's the reason why the worldwide recession didn't really hurt germany - huh. who woulda though) and well, you're basically a failure if you don't do the 3-year-apprenticeship or 5-year-university-degree and somehow come out younger than when you went in (oh and add a couple years abroad and 3 foreign languages and 2 years of experience to that) unless you wanna go into media. then you're free to do whatever the fuck you want and just need to be a good liar with fashionable shoes.

however, I think this is officially the first time in forever that I am happy to have come back home after travelling.

Wow! That's really interesting. I want to check out the differences now as well.

[LilyBathory]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocational_education .... somewhere there are more links.

oh, and here's something really fun, that I've always loved about learning a trade in germany. My bro's a carpenter and I'm still pissed off he never went "on the waltz" as carpenters are one of few professions who still do that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journeyman_years

[voiddj]

Sooo...what do you propose as a solution?

Not sure who that question was aimed at, but my answer is a little bit of socialism (at least partially state funded higher education). You've got to see the bigger picture in the benefits derived by society from higher education and not just the individual gain. Also less pressure on people to see University as their only route to a job.

Anyhoo this is way too close to work talk for me and it's Friday night.

[TheWorstIdea]

The provincial government 'unfroze' tuition in my first year of university...and it basically doubled over the course of my degree. Even working almost full-time and going to school full-time, I still ended up $7000 in debt. It fucking sucked.

ontarrrriooooo?

BC...but I hear you guys have been dealing with that too? Well, at least you've figured out how to work the HST without making the entire freaking province implode.

Thanks, in part, to the rapid rise in tuition and increase in student debt, we have a system where the government forgives your student loan if you work in "under-served" (i.e. northern) parts of the province for a certain amount of time. But it's fairly specific--nurses, doctors, physical therapists...that sort of thing.

[ComradeM]

Sooo...what do you propose as a solution?

Not sure who that question was aimed at, but my answer is a little bit of socialism (at least partially state funded higher education). You've got to see the bigger picture in the benefits derived by society from higher education and not just the individual gain. Also less pressure on people to see University as their only route to a job.

Anyhoo this is way too close to work talk for me and it's Friday night.

My question was directed at the original poster....the reality is that America is, for some reason, terrfied of anything socialist (yes, I know a lot of programs already in place are fairly socialist, but apparently other people don't). We are capitalist to the extreme and education is a commodity, just like anything else.

I see a lot of bitching, but no suggestions...then someone chimes in with some insight, but it just gets overshadowed by more bitching. I also see people bitching about things that were, AGAIN, changed by the recent student loan reform legislation. You won't be "paying for the rest of your life" because there's forgiveness if you stay on track with repayment, interest IS capped, and payments are not allowed to exceed 10% of your income...soooo...you CAN get your payments reduced, which seemed to be the original complaint...I don't know. Like, yeah, paying for school sucks, but it doesn't have to ruin your life or discourage you from seeking an education. You have rights, learn them.

Also, there's TONS of free money out there, you just have to look for it, and I'm not talking about just filling out your FAFSA and signing up for a fastweb account...government grants, private scholarship funds, unclaimed financial aid...it's stuff you have to spend time looking for, applying for, and fighting for, but it's there.

I guess maybe I just don't understand the point of this thread? To make us aware that school is hella expensive?

[sickgirliezele]

my bf went to Whittier College (private liberal arts college, Richard Nixon went there lolz) and the overall cost was 35k a SEMESTER!!!!!
he was on full la cross scholarship but left halfway into his last semester to go on tour. now he's this close to his BA at a school he can't afford with units that won't transfer.

i totally forgot you guys mentioned danny going to Whittier! oh man thats so fucked!

[jessiegrrrl]

Thanks, in part, to the rapid rise in tuition and increase in student debt, we have a system where the government forgives your student loan if you work in "under-served" (i.e. northern) parts of the province for a certain amount of time. But it's fairly specific--nurses, doctors, physical therapists...that sort of thing.

That type of program exists in the US as well, and I think it's fantastic.

My question was directed at the original poster....the reality is that America is, for some reason, terrfied of anything socialist (yes, I know a lot of programs already in place are fairly socialist, but apparently other people don't). We are capitalist to the extreme and education is a commodity, just like anything else.

I see a lot of bitching, but no suggestions...then someone chimes in with some insight, but it just gets overshadowed by more bitching. I also see people bitching about things that were, AGAIN, changed by the recent student loan reform legislation. You won't be "paying for the rest of your life" because there's forgiveness if you stay on track with repayment, interest IS capped, and payments are not allowed to exceed 10% of your income...soooo...you CAN get your payments reduced, which seemed to be the original complaint...I don't know. Like, yeah, paying for school sucks, but it doesn't have to ruin your life or discourage you from seeking an education. You have rights, learn them.

Also, there's TONS of free money out there, you just have to look for it, and I'm not talking about just filling out your FAFSA and signing up for a fastweb account...government grants, private scholarship funds, unclaimed financial aid...it's stuff you have to spend time looking for, applying for, and fighting for, but it's there.

I guess maybe I just don't understand the point of this thread? To make us aware that school is hella expensive?

You absolutely hit the nail on the head here. Like, really, thank you for posting this. This is in part what I was trying to say with my longer post above.

I just feel like ... First of all, it's the way it is, so figure out how to make it work best for you, or don't take part in it or find other options and opportunities like a ton of people do in this country. Loans are a responsibility that you AGREED to. Yes, it sucks because hey, who couldn't use that extra money? But it costs money to hire professors. And operate buildings. And run a university! One which you want to go to for your education. Which is, ultimately, an INVESTMENT on your part and on the part of those who provide the loans. The idea is that you'll be able to get to the pay scale that you'll need to repay those loans once you have the degree. The government has a huge part in making these things happen at a lot of schools, but the government making things free or a lot cheaper or putting people through school (more than they already do) is not a viable solution, either. Because then you're going to bitch about how high your taxes are.

[jessiegrrrl]

Also .. It's not the university, loan company, financial aid advisor, government, or anyone else's (the blame list goes on) fault that you can't find a job in your field after you get a degree. This is why you have to pay attention to the choices you are making now -- extraordinary circumstances aside -- so that your ass is covered in the future. If you choose to do something really specific or difficult or with a small job market or that requires a ton of post-grad experience or education, you'd better be ready to deal with those circumstances when they come. Because you still took a bunch of money from someone to use for something and you are ultimately responsible for holding up your end of the deal.

[jessiegrrrl]

PS - As we are having this conversation, I JUST checked my email only to see that my loan for this semester has been credited onto my account, and my tuition just got paid.

[CamilleDevine]

Also .. It's not the university, loan company, financial aid advisor, government, or anyone else's (the blame list goes on) fault that you can't find a job in your field after you get a degree... Because you still took a bunch of money from someone to use for something and you are ultimately responsible for holding up your end of the deal.

This is a good point.
The point of going to university (or "college"?) after school is to get skills, to go and get a job. Following your passion is a nice idea, but studying fields that are not necessary to your proposed career, or things that can be self taught, is a waste of money.
Unis/colleges are businesses, they have costs, and the people who benefit from them (students) have to account for some of those costs. Having qualified professionals is a good thing for a country, but it's good for the individual too: both need to share the responsibility.

Some of the amounts listed in this thread are extraordinary, and I think the system in the US could definitely be improved, but recent developments seem like a step in the right direction.

RE: the expectation the everyone should have a degree, I agree, it's bullshit. It sucks that in some places you have to pay for an apprenticeship. Here, you get paid (not much though: about 50/60% of normal minimum wage), but you do have to pay for TAFE (college) modules to supplement the learning. I think it's a good way to get into many careers.

[Chaosbean]

There is still the issue of YOUR involvement in it. You knowingly chose to take out that money, it is not meant to be free money, and therefore it is your responsibility to pay it back.

I agree totally. I choose a field that I loved that had reasonable starting salaries and was growing. People who started in my field were by and large making GREAT (60+) salaries after 5-7 years. The field was in a post HP boon, it was by all accounts a sound business decision. But, you see things change. I went to college pre 9/11 and graduated shortly there after. I lived in NY, where my field was centered, my internship was to be in the twin towers... you see where this is going? I didn't get a worthless degree, I did everything "right" and I had great scholarships.

Education shouldn't just be for those who can afford it, it shouldn't be a gamble. And, if the government can bail out the banking industry (who shockingly are the ones fucking us with student loans) and the auto industry shouldn't that same government (of the people, for the people and by the people, right?) be helping out citizens?

I'm not saying it should be free, and the systems in other countries are flawed in other ways (hello, at least anyone stupid enough to take out loans can go to college in the US, in other countries it is not so, which is in part why it is less costly to the individual)