The sanctioning of child genital cutting at Cornell Universi

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Re: The sanctioning of child genital cutting at Cornell Universi

Postby FrankensteinsBride on Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:06 pm

I would like to give my opinion but that's all it is, is an opinion. I'm not arguing or being defensive just as a parent telling you what I think.

By no means what so ever has any doctor ever looked at my childs (I have a daughter) genitals close enough to be looking for enlarged anything. They did check to make sure nothing was infected or anything but that was once and when she was super little, just to make sure there were no problems. Aside from that if they came to me and told me they had a vagina and two dicks, no one would ever be going near their genitals again until my child was old enough to decide what they might want to do or even have an opinion. I personally think 'an enlarged clitoris' is the most ridiculous thing someone could say to me about my daughter. I would call them a perv and walk away. Especially the sensitivity testing, I don't care what you say, thats fucked up and for a parent to sit there and let it happen, wtf?!? I feel the same way about circumcision, it's not my penis what right do I have even as a mother to cut part of it off. I realize its much more controversial due to religion and other belief but I personally feel it's just as fucked up.

Now as for the cosmetic surgery thing, its way different. Messing with their privates in any way is taking away the right to choose something as major as gender or sexual health in general. My daughter was born with torticollis due to a slow fluid leak. That later led to plagiocephaly. I choose to get the prosthesis in which she had to wear for 23hrs a day for 9 months. Yes it altered her appearance but in the future I doubt she will come to me and say, "Mom I wish you would have just left my head all lopsided." I think that's again common sense.

Now I got a little snippy about ear piercing before only because I have heard people say some nasty things about piercing a child's ears, I feel very strongly about it and never chose to comment before because of that. Does it alter them in some way? Yes, but not permanently because they can take them out if they no longer want them. Does it take away their right choose? Yes but I feel doubtful they will give a flying fudge when they get older. If you can go and get part of your sons dick cut off and no one bats an eye lash I'm not sure what the big deal about earrings is considering how harmless, when done properly, they are...That said, yes my daughter has her ears pierced, she loves them and it's freakin cute :P

This whole thing is on big matter of opinion in a lot of cases. As for the OP I think that those doctors need to be locked away and those parents need to get a fucking clue. Those little girls will now be living with their parents shitty decision for the rest of their lives. It's happened before and continues to happen now. It is tragic and extremely unfortunate for the children involved. It's terrible enough that it is even out in the world for us to have a discussion about...
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Re: The sanctioning of child genital cutting at Cornell Universi

Postby tague on Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:44 pm

poorandweird wrote:there is a very famous case study of a boy whose botched circumcison led to him being raised female; he reverted to being a man at adulthood and even had kids (i think), so psychologists assumed that he was totally fine mentally after his traumatic experience.
He later committed suicide.

I can't remember the name though

Also a well known study has shown that the prevalence of gender dysmorphia decreased in the sample between the ages of about 7 and 18, so many girls who says they want to become men or men who say they want to become boys, at age eight, may ten years later feel comfortable in their assigned sex and gender, leaving a small minority. I wonder if this shows that gender identity is fluid, y'know? Like how were the children raised, with regards to attitudes towards gender roles, and did this affect them? or does a developing brain combined with new neural connections being made mean that your perception of your gender may change? How huge a role does puberty play in all of this?

I wish i knew.



Bruce/Brenda/David Reimer. Yeah. That's the most famous case. There's a quote from one of the doctor's involved who literally said to the parents "It's a lot easier to dig a hole than build a pole." Which is fucking disgusting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer (They also based a pair of twins on an Episode of L&O:SVU on these boys.)

The thing that's tricky about gender is that it is really fluid in general. And it really is completely different for everyone. Even if a child wants it, I don't think sexual reassignment surgeries should be done until someone is an adult. Hormones at puberty if a kid has spend years saying they're not what their pants say they are, yes, since that can be more easily changed.

I've met a lot of trans people who refuse to ever get bottom surgery because they feel emotionally opposite or variant from their parts but also feel at home in their body's genitalia, they just want more/less body hair, softer/sharper features, want to have or not have breasts. Look at some of the examples of people who live as something nontraditional for their body parts and do it pretty well. The pregnant man was something I actually thought was pretty awesome because he really made some really extreme choices with his body and his gender but he did it all for himself. Buck Angel? If I wanted to look like a man, I personally wouldn't want to look like I was a Nickelback fan trying out for the WWE but the more power to that guy too. (He's a QuitSpammingOurSite star so um. NSFW if you want to look up photos.)
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Re: The sanctioning of child genital cutting at Cornell Universi

Postby Chaosbean on Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:23 am

FrankensteinsBride wrote:I
Now I got a little snippy about ear piercing before only because I have heard people say some nasty things about piercing a child's ears, I feel very strongly about it and never chose to comment before because of that. Does it alter them in some way? Yes, but not permanently because they can take them out if they no longer want them. Does it take away their right choose? Yes but I feel doubtful they will give a flying fudge when they get older.


While I'll agree with you to an extent that most people wouldn't give a flying fuck, I give a flying fuck and it is permanent. I have a scar in each ear from ears that were pierced too early in life, and since the body doesn't grow evenly they aren't really in the same spot on either ear. When getting my ears pierced as a young adult it altered the placement, when I look at my earlobes I am annoyed. Add to that the fact I could have gotten HEP from it? IDK I don't think it was the best choice. It just really pisses me off.
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Re: The sanctioning of child genital cutting at Cornell Universi

Postby FrankensteinsBride on Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:14 am

Well I'm sorry in your circumstance that it didn't work out for you. That is totally unfortunate. It the case of my daughter I am quiet confident that she will not have a problem. My husband owned an award winning shop for many years and if it had not been for our good friend who is professional I would have never gotten them done for her. If in the end she does resent me for them, that was a risk I went in fully understanding could potentially happen. I had my ears done when I was seven, I begged and begged because everyone else had them and I NEEDED them. They are crooked as fuck but in my opinion its not that big of a deal. I still managed to stretch my ears to almost an inch and a half and if it was really bothering me and they didn't grow over there are procedures to fix them (just like their are for the giant nose my dad gave me :P) so I could get them done correctly. I don't know I'm only defensive because it's my kid :)
It could have been something way worse...all I'm trying to say.
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Re: The sanctioning of child genital cutting at Cornell Universi

Postby poorandweird on Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:20 pm

... uhm that doesnt solve the fact that as Bean said the body grows unevenly
YOU KEEP COMING BACK FOR MORE
CAUSE IT'S THE POLITICS OF CRUELTY
THAT WE LIVE FOR
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Re: The sanctioning of child genital cutting at Cornell Universi

Postby FrankensteinsBride on Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:38 pm

^^ Well...my daughters are even now and guaranteed they will be even when she is older. From the experience and background we have, I don't believe when done correctly they go lopsided when you grow. I have never seen correctly pierced earlobes migrate with growth but if they were crooked when you got them they will be crooked when you get older AND if you are upset about having had them done crooked when you were younger and they aren't growing over you can very easily get them closed professionally.

Regardless this isn't a thread about piercing a child's ears...
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Re: The sanctioning of child genital cutting at Cornell Universi

Postby Prettygrimm on Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:40 pm

^^^^^^^^^
you threw in the blurb about ears. now back it up.
Bean is correct. there is NO way to guarantee that your daughters ears will remain even. the human body does not grow symmetrically perfect, EVER.
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Re: The sanctioning of child genital cutting at Cornell Universi

Postby kitty kibuty on Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:17 pm

tague, i very much appreciate how well spoken & thoroughly researched you are. it made me so happy to read your posts in this topic.

i absolutely disagree with this type of surgery, but i should really hope that isn't much up for debate. i think it should be a fairly obvious thing to be able to understand a surgery based on anatomical functionality vs. the appalling idea of cosmetic surgery on an infant's genitals. i really don't see how or why anyone could be ok with that. with the amount of people born with "abnormal" genitalia, you'd that that there would be a little more awareness, but we live in a world filled with an overwhelming amount of ignorance, intolerance, & insecurity.

we each take the journey of growing into our bodies & ourselves. growing up i definitely struggled with self discovery & trying to figure out who i was & how to be true to myself while still being able to function in the world around me & i identify as a straight female. i can't imagine the extra burden of challenging everyone's expectations of my gender & sexual identity. i have numerous friends & aquaintances who identify as gay, trans, or gender queer & while i am 100% supportive & proud of them i don't envy their struggles. to, on top of all of that, have to cope with that type of genital mutilation is unbelievable. can you imagine the trust issues these people must have with their parents & medical professionals alike?
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Re: The sanctioning of child genital cutting at Cornell Universi

Postby Chaosbean on Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:56 pm

FrankensteinsBride wrote:Well I'm sorry in your circumstance that it didn't work out for you. That is totally unfortunate. It the case of my daughter I am quiet confident that she will not have a problem. My husband owned an award winning shop for many years and if it had not been for our good friend who is professional I would have never gotten them done for her. If in the end she does resent me for them, that was a risk I went in fully understanding could potentially happen. I had my ears done when I was seven, I begged and begged because everyone else had them and I NEEDED them. They are crooked as fuck but in my opinion its not that big of a deal. I still managed to stretch my ears to almost an inch and a half and if it was really bothering me and they didn't grow over there are procedures to fix them (just like their are for the giant nose my dad gave me :P) so I could get them done correctly. I don't know I'm only defensive because it's my kid :)
It could have been something way worse...all I'm trying to say.



I don't think it was a bad decision so much as one that I wish hadn't been made, and I've seen pictures I was cute as fuck with my pierced ears and giant diaper butt.

I really don't think, particularly in the scope of this post, that earrings are a big deal (unless you have them done with guns, then I think suck suck suck)
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Re: The sanctioning of child genital cutting at Cornell Universi

Postby FrankensteinsBride on Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:36 pm

^^ Your right the piercing gun is the devil!! Stay away if you ever wanna pierce anything on anybody AND granted I don't know what they will look like when she is older, I'm just pretty sure they will be fine. No research has proved any of this (yours or mine, no one is correct) a fact about earrings (don't jump down my throat I know the body grows wonky) but there is NO way to guarantee they will go uneven either. I know that as a parent I made the right decision for my daughter :) I was never trying to be all uppity (sorry if you felt that way Bean, not my intention), I can talk a fucking mean streak about shit I feel passionate about, so I did :) So having said what I needed to say, I will back it up...
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Re: The sanctioning of child genital cutting at Cornell Universi

Postby Chaosbean on Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:49 am

FrankensteinsBride wrote: I was never trying to be all uppity (sorry if you felt that way Bean, not my intention), I can talk a fucking mean streak about shit I feel passionate about, so I did :) So having said what I needed to say, I will back it up...


Nah, I'm all good, I enjoy intelligent conversation. And, I'm the same way about things.
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Re: The sanctioning of child genital cutting at Cornell Universi

Postby caseystilletto on Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:45 am

You know what's shitty to add on to this already steaming pile? The emotional trauma of all this. Can you imagine ten, fifteen years down the road and your parents admitting to approve this because they didn't think you looked "normal"? What IS normal? And it makes it extra Uncle Badtouch pervy to be inspecting your daughter down there to make sure everything is A-ok. So strange.
And secondly, if any of these children are intersex, how much does that screw them up?
So your little girl had a big clit. Who cares? What happened to celebrating our bodies and the infinite variety of shapes, sizes, colors, genders, and everything else that makes us all special?
And no one should be let near your child's genitals unless there's a health problem going on. Period.
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Re: The sanctioning of child genital cutting at Cornell Universi

Postby MissVicious on Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:25 am

FrankensteinsBride wrote:^^ Piercing ears is no where near the same thing as any genital mutilation, not even close but that's a whole other topic...



I'm aware that its a whole other topic, but i was saying I am totally against JUST piercing ears. so this is nauseating to me
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Re: The sanctioning of child genital cutting at Cornell Universi

Postby Wolfmoon on Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:05 am

Geez, when are people going to learn that there is no such thing as 'normal' it's something made up in high school.

When I was pregnant and the subject of 'abnormal' genitals came up I flat out told my husband that there would be no 'corrective' surgeries on them if they are born intersex/hemaphradite or whatever. And if he didn't agree he could hit the road and I would move far away where he would never polute my. Babies mind with ideas of 'normal'. He said okay.

I have honestly never heard a story of a reassigned person saying "I had a great life and never questioned my gender! I love the decision my parents/doctor forced me into!"

This story is one of the things that happens when societies don't kill pedophiles.
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Re: The sanctioning of child genital cutting at Cornell Universi

Postby rainaraven on Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:49 am

[quote="Wolfmoon

This story is one of the things that happens when societies don't kill pedophiles.[/quote]
SO. WELL. SAID.
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